China is Not the Oldest Continuous Civilization

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05-02-2018, 08:35 PM

arcsabre 1 posts, read 1,654 times Reputation: 10

"India did not maintain a cohesive empire for anywhere near as long, nor did any other place in the world. India's history is full of conflict, religious upheavals, regime changes, invasions and CHANGE." If by cohesive empire it is meant a single political state, then yes. By that account there shouldn't be a Greek or Chinese civilization as well. But culturally India has maintained continuity throughout geography and time for thousands of years. Even today we can find aspects in Indian culture from the Harappan times, such as yoga (Pashupati Seal), the endless knot, swastika, ritual bathing, bull baiting, agricultural practices and possibly fire worship and even curry [[url]http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food/2013/01/indus_civilization_food_how_scientists_are_figurin g_out_what_curry_was_like.html][/url] These are still the defining features of Indian culture, to this day. That would make the continuity even predate Chinese. The claim that invasions have changed the Indian landscape beyond recognition is simply not true. Most people who invaded India, such as the Huns, Greeks, Scythians, assimilated into one of the three Indian philosophies of Hinduism, Jainism or Buddhism. Even today, 80+ % of India is Hindu, the culture that's been around since atleast 1500 B.C. albeit with additions over time. Vedic culture, the sutras and mantras (such as the Shrauta traditions that date back to probably the initial Vedic era) are recited to this day. Indian culture is a continuous story of evolution while still retaining it's oldest roots (especially the animistic), possibly from the Neolithic Everything today is different from what it was 100 years ago, nevermind 2200 years ago The influence of outsiders on the basic Indian psyche is often overplayed "Going by the OP's rules we can call the United States an ancient empire too because people have been living here for around 11,000 years." Well for one there wasn't anything as complex as the Indus or Sumerian civilization back then. And it cannot be shown that significant aspects of the culture from back then continues to this day "India was conquered and fully submitted several times (khans then muslims). Their culture today is an amalgamation of several different dialects and groups of people (almost like Native American tribes)." Not really. The American tribes did not have a largely unifying language, or shared culture like Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism (which in turn share common roots). The Khans and muslims while they left their mark on Indian culture, did not change it to the point that the previous stages are not recognizable. Hinduism for instance predates both of those and is still very much around in India and neighboring places Last edited by arcsabre; 05-02-2018 at 08:56 PM..

05-03-2018, 09:22 AM

asiago12 Location: Switzerland/Ticino 283 posts, read 140,598 times Reputation: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by Trimac20 This is a claim I sometimes hear, and I question on what basis it is made. For I can think of another civilization, just as old if not older than China, which is BETTER preserved, especially after Mao's cultural revolution. That is India. India is still an incredibly traditional place, where old age customs permeate everyday life. The Indus valley civilization is probably as old as Mesopotamia, and older than the Huang He. Sanskrit and Pali derived languages are still spoken, as well as Tamil, one of the world's oldest languages. Tamil has certainly changed a lot less in 2000 years than Mandarin Chinese. India also has a lot more preserved historical monuments (the Sanchi Stupa dates from 300 BC, China's oldest temple is only from 500 AD). One could also make the same argument for Greece, Egypt, Rome or even the Hebrews.etc. I don't think China is all that unique, although it's still a fascinating culture. Sanchi Stupa is not a preserved monument ( very simple structure.. it is not a building at all ) .. it has been completely restored recently...and China's oldest temple Nanchan Temple dates back to the 8 th century A.D... and it is not 100% a preserved temple. Pantheon in Rome is 100% preserved and it dates back to 100 A.D.

05-03-2018, 12:08 PM

mkwensky Location: Denver, CO 2,340 posts, read 1,488,096 times Reputation: 2303

Quote: Originally Posted by asiago12 Sanchi Stupa is not a preserved monument ( very simple structure.. it is not a building at all ) .. it has been completely restored recently...and China's oldest temple Nanchan Temple dates back to the 8 th century A.D... and it is not 100% a preserved temple. Pantheon in Rome is 100% preserved and it dates back to 100 A.D. I don't know what your definition of "preserved" is, but I don't think any structure that was been and still is in use should count. In my opinion anything that wasn't abandoned, buried and then rediscovered should qualify.

05-04-2018, 02:53 AM

asiago12 Location: Switzerland/Ticino 283 posts, read 140,598 times Reputation: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by mkwensky I don't know what your definition of "preserved" is, but I don't think any structure that was been and still is in use should count. In my opinion anything that wasn't abandoned, buried and then rediscovered should qualify. This is a 100% preserved building.Pantheon - Rome - 100. A.D. Hadrian EmperorThis is not a 100% preserved wall China Great Wall

05-04-2018, 03:52 AM

Frihed89 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark 10,937 posts, read 10,837,034 times Reputation: 13139

Quote: Originally Posted by depotato Most scholars date the arrival of humans in Australia at 40,000 to 50,000 years ago, with a possible range of up to 125,000 years ago. There's a new book, worth reading, by David Reich, Who we are and How we got here. Reich shows how Ancient DNA has revolutionized what we know about human, Neanderthal, Dinisovan and ghost population migration and inter-breeding. It's a tough read in some places, but fascinating.

05-29-2018, 01:41 AM

asiago12 Location: Switzerland/Ticino 283 posts, read 140,598 times Reputation: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by NJGOAT It's a really hard question to answer and largely relies upon what we are going to define as civilization. What many sources credit is that China has the longest lasting continuous civilization per the western definition of civilization. Heck, we have Chinese writing and histories that go back 3,500 years and at that point China was already an "old" civilization. I think the overall estimate is that China can trace a path of continuous existence back some 7,000+ years. There are equally ancient civilizations out there, but I don't think any of them have the same continuous cultural lineage that China does. If we want to limit it to cultural "civilization" then groups like the Inuit, Australian Aborigines and several African groups easily have cultural traditions very much alive today that stretch back over tens of thousands of years. Of course, none of these meet the urban-centric definition of civilization. The oldest Chinese characters have been traced back to the late Shang Dynatsty about 1100–1050 BC. The oldest Greek characters have been traced back to Mycenaeans about 1500 BC. The oldest Etruscan ( Italy pre-rome ) have been traced back to 1000 B.C.

05-29-2018, 07:47 AM

mkwensky Location: Denver, CO 2,340 posts, read 1,488,096 times Reputation: 2303

Quote: Originally Posted by asiago12 The oldest Chinese characters have been traced back to the late Shang Dynatsty about 1100–1050 BC. The oldest Greek characters have been traced back to Mycenaeans about 1500 BC. The oldest Etruscan ( Italy pre-rome ) have been traced back to 1000 B.C. Man you really are obsessed. Did a Chinese guy steal your girlfriend or something? The Greeks did not invent writing. The Mycenaeans borrowed their scripts from the Minoans while the Classical Greeks got the alphabet from the Phoenicians. The Chinese did not have the benefit of living in an area that's surrounded by older civilizations.

05-30-2018, 02:48 AM

asiago12 Location: Switzerland/Ticino 283 posts, read 140,598 times Reputation: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by mkwensky Man you really are obsessed. Did a Chinese guy steal your girlfriend or something? The Greeks did not invent writing. The Mycenaeans borrowed their scripts from the Minoans while the Classical Greeks got the alphabet from the Phoenicians. The Chinese did not have the benefit of living in an area that's surrounded by older civilizations. It is clear that China should stop boasting about the 5000 years civilization. It is clearly a treasure of data for governance, but it does not necessarily mean it makes you the wiser. China civilization is roughly 3500 years old.. Chinese should be proud but not chauvinistic.

05-30-2018, 07:36 AM

mkwensky Location: Denver, CO 2,340 posts, read 1,488,096 times Reputation: 2303

Quote: Originally Posted by asiago12 It is clear that China should stop boasting about the 5000 years civilization. It is clearly a treasure of data for governance, but it does not necessarily mean it makes you the wiser. China civilization is roughly 3500 years old.. Chinese should be proud but not chauvinistic. Surprisingly I am in agreement with all of the above.

05-31-2018, 07:49 PM

Mircea Location: Ohio 23,424 posts, read 17,356,222 times Reputation: 20229

Quote: Originally Posted by asiago12 Sanchi Stupa is not a preserved monument ( very simple structure.. it is not a building at all ) .. it has been completely restored recently...and China's oldest temple Nanchan Temple dates back to the 8 th century A.D... and it is not 100% a preserved temple. Pantheon in Rome is 100% preserved and it dates back to 100 A.D. That doesn't prove anything. Civilizations generally use whatever materials are readily available. It could be that wood was more readily available than stone, and so it was used in buildings. Unfortunately, wood structures don't last long, as they decay rapidly if not maintained. It could also be that religious or philosophical views preferred wood over stone. Stone, after all, is dead, while wood is alive. Since all civilizations begin with animist views, it's possible it played a role in the use of materials for building construction. Quote: Originally Posted by asiago12 The oldest Chinese characters have been traced back to the late Shang Dynatsty about 1100–1050 BC. A more recent archaeological find pushes that back another 1,000 years.

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